Naval: (I was, a few days back).. dealing with a question of
ナバル: （数日前に）人生の意味について
(stupid topic, but)
(馬鹿げた話題かもだけど)
the meaning of life, right?
考えていたんだ。
Joe: How could that be stupid, though? It’s trite.
ジョー: 別に馬鹿げてないでしょ。ありふれた話ではあるけど。
Naval: It’s trite. You’re not supposed to think about it.
ナバル: ありふれてる。所謂「考えなくていい」こと。
It’s something you ask your parents when you’re young
若い時に親に訊くと決まって
they tell you, “Don’t worry about it”
「心配するな」って言われる。
Joe: “Go get a job hippie”
ジョー: 「ヒッピー辞めて仕事に就け」
Naval: Yeah, exactly. Go get a job frickin hippie.
ナバル: そうそう、仕事を探せ、このヒッピーが！
Or, “Here’s God. God is the meaning of life”, right?
でなきゃ「神が人生の意味だ」でおしまい。
And, so, I was just trying to resolve for myself like,
で、私が何を解決しようとしたかというと
“what could the answer be”? Not, what is the answer,
意味それ自体じゃなくて、「になり得るもの」
but what could the answer be.
は何だろうと考えてみたんだ。
And, so, at a core level I was forced to kind of
で、核心の部分であれやこれやと
hunt down all these weird little things and
検証しなければいけなかったのだけど、
really understand for myself. It’s got to be personal, right?
そうやって自分なりに理解しようとしたんだ。
But, I’d establish for myself what it could and could not be.
何が人生の意味たり得るか、たり得ないか。
And, that gave me some level of peace.
それを確立することで心に一定の穏やかさが
So, now, I don’t have to keep asking that question.
生まれたので、今は悩まされなくて済んでる。
Joe: What is the meaning of life?
ジョー: で、人生の意味は？
Naval: I mean, you should.., I think the question is more interesting than the answer.
ナバル: えーと、それはですね、答えよりも問いの方が面白い訳で
Everyone should explore this on their own.
皆それぞれに答えを探すのがいいんだと。
But, let me just explore a few parts with you.
まあ、折角だから部分的にかいつまんでみようか。
So, first is, if I gave you an answer, if I said
まず、私があなたに答えを教えたとしよう。
the meaning of life is to please God, well which God?,
神を讃えることに意味があるとね。え？どの神？
okay judeo-Christian God, well, okay why that one?,
ユダヤ教とキリスト教の神さ。
why this thing?
え？なんでその神なわけ？
The problem is it’s a why question.
つまり問題は「何故」と問うこと自体にある。
You can keep asking why forever. Right?
問いは連鎖して永遠に残り続けるからね。
Any answer I give you, you just ask why again, why again.
どんな答えを与えてもあなたは結局納得しないで訊き続ける。
Joe: Like a little kid.
ジョー: 子供みたいに
Naval: That’s right.
ナバル: その通り
And, you end up in a place called Agrippa’s Trilemma.
その結果、「アグリッパのトリレンマ」に辿り着く。
Okay, this is a philosophical exercise.
これは哲学的なアプローチで
I kind of thought through and googled around
自分で色々考えたり、ググっているうちに
and there’s a thing called Agrippa’s Trilemma.
見つけたのがこの(ジレンマならぬ)トリレンマなんだ。
And Agrippa’s Trilemma says that any questioning like this “why”
それによると「何故」と問うことは
will always end up in one of three places.
次の3つのうちのどれかに行き着く。
Okay, first is infinite regress, right?
1つめは無限に後退しづつけるパターン。
Why? Because of this. Why that? It just keeps going on forever.
なぜ？これこれだから。なぜそれ？と永遠に終わらない。
The second is circular reasoning. Well, A, why A because it’s B,
2番目は循環論法。AはBゆえにAである。
why B because of A. So, you get trapped in that.
なぜB？それはAの時Bだからという罠に嵌る。
Or, the third is an axiom, and the most popular axiom is God.
3つめは自明の理。典型的なのは神だけど、
But, it could be anything because of math, because of the science,
別にそれが数学的に自明だとか、科学的に自明だとか
because of the Big Bang, because of the simulation, right?
ビッグバンゆえにそうだとか、シミュレーションだからとか
These are all axioms. These are just stopping points.
これらは全て自明だからという理由で議論を終わらせるものだよね。
Saying we’re in a simulation or saying it’s the Big Bang,
実は我々の現実はコンピュータシミュレーションだからだとか、
it’s just another way of saying God.
ビッグバンがあったからって言うのは
It’s just God’s a dirty word, so we don’t use as much anymore,
本質的に神のせいにするのと変わらない。
but the same thing.
最近は神という言葉は嫌われるからあまり使われないけど。
So, you end up in one of these three dead ends essentially.
要するにどうやっても3つのうちのどれかに行き着く。
Right? So, there is no answer.
ね？だから、答えはないんだよ。
The real answer is “Because”.
「なんで」に対する本当の答えは「なんででも」かな。
[Both laugh]
[二人して笑う]
Joe: What is the meaning of life?
ジョー: 人生の意味ってなんだ？
Naval: “You get to make up your own answer” is the beauty.
ナバル: 自分の答えは自分で出すってところが素晴らしいんだ。
If there was a single answer, we would not be free.
もし、答えが一つに決まっていたとしたら、我々は自由になれなくなってしまう。
We would be trapped, because, then, we would all have to
だって、その答えの虜になって、
live to that answer. Then, we’d be borg like robots each one
皆その答えに向かって生きなきゃいけないから。
competing with each other to fulfill that single meaning
人生唯一の意味を満たすゲームに皆が参加して
more than others back to signaling,
「私の方があなたより優っています」
“I’m better at it than you are”.
と戦い続けるサイボーグになってしまう。
But, luckily there is no answer.
ただ、幸運なことに答えはないんだ。
So, you just do whatever you want.
だから、やりたいことは何をやってもいいんだよね。
Joe: The meaning of life.
ジョー: 人生の意味か。
It’s funny that that’s the basis of all existential angst that
意味を問うから、自らの存在に
you don’t..
不安をいだく…
Naval: You don’t know why you’re here.
ナバル: 私はなぜここにいるのか。
Joe: And, you have this feeling that it could be meaningless.
ジョー: で、意味なんてないという予感もうっすらと持っている。
It is, I mean, if you when you start pondering
つまり、色々な事を考え始めちゃうと、色々な事っていうのは、
the multiverse, the universe, the galaxies,
マルチバースのこととか、全宇宙のこととか、銀河系とか、
the solar system, the planet, the organism,
太陽系とか、惑星とか、生命体とか、
the cells inside the organisms, the bacteria, the parasites.
生命体の細胞とか、バクテリアとか、寄生虫とか、
There’s symbiotic relationship we have to our environment
ありとあらゆる物が絡み合って存在しているのがこの世界なわけで、
and you start going,
そういう事を考え出すと、
“Jesus Christ! What? Am I just a little of piece of this thing?”
「うわー、自分の存在なんて余りにも小さくね？」
Naval: Well, the answers to all the great questions are paradoxes
ナバル: スケールの大きな疑問への答えは皆パラドックス。
Joe: Yeah.
ジョー: いや、本当に。
Naval: So, for example, you’re asking, like, “Do I matter”?
ナバル: 例えば「自分に存在価値はあるのか」
That’s like really the question you asked right? Well,
っていう問いだよね？今話してるのは。
“How do I matter in this infinite universe”?
「この無限に広い宇宙で自分が存在することに価値はあるのか？」
Well, you know, on one hand, you’re separate.
まず一つ、人はみなバラバラという見方がある。
No two points are the same. Every point is..
二つとして同じ点が存在しないとか、
Every two points are infinitely different.
二点間には常に相当の隔たりがあるように、
You’re completely separated.
あなたという存在も他から切り離されていて、
No one will have your thoughts, your emotions,
あなたの考えや感情、
your feeling, your experience.
感覚や経験と全く同じものを他人は持ち得ない。
So, your life is a single-player game.
丁度、あなたが一人でゲームをしている時のように、
You’re trapped inside your head and you’re just aware of
全ての出来事はあなたの頭の中だけで起きていて、
a bunch of things going on and that’s it.
知っているのもあなただけ。それがあなたの人生。
On the other hand, I cannot say the words Joe Rogan
ただ、別の考え方をすると、この宇宙を提起する事なく
without invoking the entire universe.
私はあなたの名前を言うことができない。
Joe Rogan. Alien comes along and says, “What’s that?”
ジョー・ローガン…・例えば宇宙人が現れて「何それ？」と訊いたとする。
“Joe Rogan”
「ジョー・ローガン」
“What’s Joe Rogan?”
「ジョー・ローガンって何？」
“A human”
「人間」
“What’s a human?”
「人間って何？」
“Bipedal ape”
「二足歩行する猿」
“What’s an ape?”
「猿って何？」
“On the earth”.
「地球上の(生き物)」
“What’s the earth?”
「地球って何？」
“Planet”
「惑星」
“What’s a planet?”
「惑星って何？」
“Solar system”
「太陽系」
“Where was the carbon made?”
「炭素はどこで作られた？」
“Inside stars”.
「星の中で」
Right? It’s that I have to create the entire universe just to say the words “Joe Rogan”.
ね？ただ、ジョー・ローガンを説明する為に私は全宇宙を創造しなければならないでしょ？
So, in that sense, you’re connected to everything.
そういう意味では、あなたは全てのものに繋がっているとも言える。
It’s inseparable.
切っても切れない関係。
So, the answer to that question of do I matter is:
つまり、私の価値は？という問いへの答えは
I am nothing and I am everything.
私は無であり、全てである。
And, you’ll find this with all the great questions,
深い問いを発することで、ようやくこの事に気づけるのだけど、
and answers are all paradoxes, which is why,
深い問いの答えは全てのパラドックスだから、
at some level, it’s sort of pointless to pursue them
あまり深追いしても意味がないし、
to find a trite answer like I’m giving.
返ってくるのはありふれた答えだけ。
But, the act of pursuing them is actually really useful.
ただ、問うという行為自体は
Because, then, it gives you certain intrinsic understanding
生きていく中で何かを本質的に理解する助けになるから
in your life that brings a level of peace.
心に一定の平安をもたらすのに便利だね。
worrying about the pathway to the future
心配しながら一生を終えてしまうことだって可能です
but all there will ever be is what’s happening here
しかし、実際には、今この瞬間に下す決断によって
in the decisions we make in this moment
起きることが人生の全て、そしてその決断は
which are based in either love or fear.
愛もしくは恐怖のどちらかに基づいています
So many of us choose our path out of fear disguised as practicality.
多くの人たちが、現実性という名の仮面をかぶった恐怖に従って道を選んでいます
What we really want seems impossibly out of reach and ridiculous to expect,
本当に欲しいものに手が届くことなんてありえないし夢みるのもバカらしい
so we never dare to ask the universe for it.
そう言ってこの宇宙にお願いしようとすらしない
I’m saying I’m the proof that you can ask the universe for it.
でも、私は言いたい。夢は実現可能だという生き証人が
Please.
目の前にいるじゃないかと
My father could have been a great comedian.
私の父は素晴らしいコメディアンになれる可能性を秘めていました
But, he didn’t believe that that was possible for him,
しかし、父は自分にその可能性があるのを信じなかった
and so, he made a conservative choice.
だから、彼はより保守的な選択をして
Instead, he got a safe job as an accountant.
安全な仕事である会計士の道を選んだのです
And, when I was 12 years old, he was let go from that safe job
そして、私が12の時、父はその「安全な」仕事からも解雇され
and our family had to do whatever we could to survive.
私たち家族は生き残る為にはなんでもしなければなりませんでした
I learned many great lessons from my father, not the least of which was
父は私に沢山のことを多くのことを教えてくれましたが、その一つが
that you can fail at what you don’t want,
やりたくないことでも失敗しうるということ
so you might as well take a chance on doing what you love.
それならいっそやりたいことに賭けてみる方がいいということでした
Your need for acceptance can make you invisible in this world.
承認欲求は人を透明人間にしてしまうことができます
Don’t let anything stand in the way of the light that shines through this form.
どうかあなたに光が当たるのを何物にも邪魔させないでください
Risk being seen in all of your glory.
見られることを恐れず全身で輝いてください
As far as I can tell, it’s just about
私に言えることは、これはどうやって
letting the universe know what you want
宇宙にあなたの願いをとどけるか、そして
and working toward it
どうそれに向かって努力するか
while letting go of how it comes to pass.
結果に固執しないでいられるかということです
And, when I say, life doesn’t happen to you,
人生はあなたにふりかかるのではなく、
it happens for you,
あなたの為にあるのだと言いましたが
I really don’t know if that’s true.
それが本当かどうかはわかりません。
I’m just making a conscious choice
ただ、私は自分の意思で
to perceive challenges as something beneficial,
困難は人生にとって有益なものだと考えれば
so that I can deal with them in the most productive way.
最も生産的なやり方でそれに立ち向かえると思うのです
You’ll come up with your own style. That’s part of the fun.
やり方は人それぞれでしょう。それが人生の醍醐味です。
Like many of you, I was concerned about going out into the world
私も皆さんと同じように、社会に出て行って大丈夫なのか
and doing something bigger than myself,
ビッグなことをやれるのかと心配したことがありました
until someone smarter than myself made me realize that
しかし、私よりずっと賢い誰かが、やがて気づかせてくれました
there is nothing bigger than myself.
等身大以上の自分なんて存在しないということを
You are ready and able to do beautiful things in this world.
皆さんにはもう、この世界で素晴らしいことを行う準備ができています
And, after you walk through those doors today,
今日通り抜けるその扉の向こうには
you will only ever have two choices: Love or fear.
たった２つの選択肢しかありません。愛か、恐怖か。
Choose love and don’t ever let fear turn you against your playful heart.
愛を選んでください。そしてあなたの楽しいハートを決して恐怖に奪わせないでください
Thank you so much.
どうもありがとう
Rowan Atkinson (RA): Good evening and welcome to the national theatre for this, the third in our series of informal conversations with major performers. It has been a very exciting season so far, which has encompassed such performing giants as Ian McKellen, Dame Judi Dench, and of course, Christopher Biggins.
RA: But tonight we are to welcome a man, who, although no giant has nevertheless made a huge impression in his chosen field. Ladies and gentlemen, Mr. Elton John.
RA: Elton. Do you mind if I call you Elton?
Elton John (EJ): No, that’s fine.
RA: Good. Well. Elton.
RA: I’m sure the first question that everybody would like to ask you is this. Funny name, Elton. How did you come by it?
EJ: Well, I used to be in a band and I wanted to become a singer in my own right and I wanted to choose a name and a saxophone player in the band was called Elton, so I chose that name.
RA: Did you ever consider John Elton?
EJ: No.
RA: You.. you didn’t.
EJ: No.
RA: Okay.
RA: Right. Well, let’s start with those early albums, then. One of which I believe was called simply “Elton John”.
EJ: Yes. That’s correct.
RA: When you didn’t feel awkward with the name at all.
EJ: No.
RA: You didn’t feel that people might say, “Wait a minute. They mean John Elton. They cocked up the record sleeve and printed the bloody name the wrong way around”.
EJ: No, I thought it sounded great and you know I thought people would be more interested in the music rather than the name.
RA: (hmm)
RA: Now, to the songs themselves. Many of the lyrics were, of course, written by Bernie Taupin.
EJ: Yes, that’s right.
RA: Well, I’d like to talk about Bernie for a while since obviously he’s been an enormous influence on your career.
EJ: Yes, he has.
RA: Tell me. Did you ever discuss changing his name? Because presumably Taupin Bernie would’ve been more consistent with your Elton John.
EJ: Look. Do you want to talk about the old songs or not?
RA: Alright, alright, the songs. The old songs. Your song is a classic, isn’t it?
EJ: Yes. Quite popular, yes.
RA: Well, there is a verse in that song in which talking about the eyes of the person that the song is about. You sing, “Excuse me for asking. These things I do. You see, I’ve forgotten if they’re green or they’re blue”.
EJ: Yes.
RA: What I’d like to know is this. Is it this sort of chronic forgetfulness that led you to forget that Elton is not in fact a Christian name at all. It is a surname. And, uh, not a very attractive one at that.
EJ: Let’s talk about something else, shall we? Forget the name.
RA: Alright, Mr. John.
RA: Let’s talk about being a stage performer, should we? Tell me. Do you ever watch other performers and get jealous?
EJ: I.. I’m not sure.. I don’t follow you there, I mean, jealous of what?
RA: Well, for instance, Ben Elton.
EJ: I don’t have to do this, you know.
RA: Alright, alright. Look, I’m sorry. Look, I’m sorry. Alright. Fair enough moving on, then. Many consider your masterpiece, of course, to be the album “Goodbye Yellow Brick Road”. And, there is one song that people are particularly moved by called, called “Candle in the Wind”.
EJ: Yes. A lot of people seem to like that song.
RA: Now, this song is in fact dedicated to Norma Jean Baker, who, of course, changed her name to Monroe Marilyn.
EJ: Marilyn Monroe.
RA: My point exactly! Marilyn is a Christian name, so it comes first. Can’t you see that? You were blind or something. I mean it’s…
EJ: I’ve had enough of this.
RA: Alright, no, no, no, wait please. I’m sorry. Sit please. It was my mistake. I’m sorry. There’s only one more question to go. It won’t take long, really. It won’t take a moment. There’s only.. I’m.. Please sit down.
RA: One final question. You’ve obviously achieved enormous success over the years. But, in fact, you didn’t have a solo British number one until this year with a song called “Sacrifice”. Now, my big question is this. Surely, you wouldn’t have had to wait so long for a number one if hadn’t it been for your stupid pointless bloody name!
Last summer, we did our first big family vacation. Well, I should clarify we went to Disney. Now, if you haven’t been to Disney as an adult, just imagine you’re standing in line at the DMV, and that’s it. Actually, it was Orlando in July, so it’s kind of like standing in line on the surface of the sun. Why would we do this to ourselves? When you’re a kid, you go on vacation, you’d be like: “Why is dad always in a bad mood?” Now, I understand. How can I spend an enormous amount of money, be uncomfortable, and listen to my children complain and whine? Disney! Oh, good. I did figure out what makes Disney truly magical, though. You can walk around sweating your ass off for 12 hours, and still gain weight. I know it’s 110 out here but these fries taste great. We eat, you know, because we want to have good time. Really, that’s all a vacation is. Just, us eating in a place we’ve never been. Well, why don’t we eat something, then we’ll go and get something to eat? And, we’ll see that thing we’re supposed to see. They’ve probably got a snack bar there, right? After that, we should probably get something to eat, though. Then, we’ll eat something. We eat, because there’s pressure to have fun on your vacation, right? But at Disney, it’s like a desperation. You see it on the faces of parents like, “This was an enormous mistake. I hope you’re having fun. It was either this or send you to college”. I stood in line for an hour and 15 minutes for the Dumbo ride. After a minute, I was like, “I’m the Dumbo”. I’m waiting to see myself. At the end of the line, there’s just going to be a mirror, and some guy going, “Dumbo!” Some of those rides at Disney, they make you realize how far we’ve come with amusement parks. Like, I was on that ride, “It’s a small world”. Wow, there was a time when people found this entertaining? You could be on acid and you’re like, “I’m not getting anything here. I think I’ll go back to staring at my hand. Yeah, that’s better. Only I have two of these”. There’s a lot of those rides at Disney. They were developed in the 70s. There were no competition. They were making up rides. It’s just some guy going, “All right. How about a bumper car goes into a dark room and there’s a picture of Winnie the Pooh? People stand in line for an hour for that, right? Here, I got another one. What if we hollow out a log and throw them over a waterfall? We’ve got their money. What are they going to do?” I have to admit my favorite ride was the air-conditioned bus back to the airport. Well worth the wait. If you don’t like Disney, then why would you go? I went because I love my children. Now, you know, there are adults without children that go to Disney, and they’re called weirdos. Very nice people, absolutely crazy. Even the comic-con people are like, “Yeah, they’re a little frightening. I got a Batman living room, but these people are scary”.
